This turned out a lot longer than anticipated and in my head was much more coherent as it's basically a bunch of rambling to make a simple point, but it is what it is.
Been thinking about Lebron a little bit the last few days with training camps beginning and I recently watched "More Than a Game", a documentary following Lebron and his friends as they dealt with the trials and tribulations of high school basketball in Ohio. Very touching. Trials and tribulations? Are you kidding me? How can a documentary on the kid that's been treated like a King since his post-pubescent era have the same tagline as a documentary for "Darfur Now", a documentary following the people of Darfur as they deal with the trials and tribulations of genocide? Anyway, I've always considered Kobe better than Lebron but I think I've convinced myself that Lebron right now is better than Kobe ever was and has been for a few years now. Sorry Joey. Lebron led the Cavs to a league best 61 games last year to the Lakers 57 and to a league best the year before 66 wins to the Lakers 65. That alone is impressive but I realize you have to factor in an easier schedule for the Eastern conference team (should be noted that Lebron leads head-to-head series 6-2 over last 4 years which is one of our main criteria to convince ourselves that DWill is better than Chris Paul) and also the fact that the regular season record doesn't mean nearly as much as an NBA championship that Kobe brought to the Lakers the last two years and Lebron has never attained. This is where, I believe, the main argument FOR KOBE and AGAINST LEBRON originates. Kobe has 5 championship rings (2 Finals MVP's) to Lebrons zero. This is an understandable separation as the championships are a big part of what separates Jordan from everyone else. Now, think of the teams with whom Kobe has won his championships--- 2000, 2001, and 2002 he was playing with Shaquille O'Neal, who at the time was the most dominant player in the league. Shaq, not Kobe, was the better regular season performer (almost 30ppg and 14rbg in 1999-2000) and playoff performer (Shaq was the Finals MVP all three times). But what happened between 2002-2009? Kobe went six years without a championship which is very close to how long Lebron has gone without a championship. Kobe continued to be amazing and arguably the best in the game over those 6 years winning an MVP in 07-08 and arguably should have won another in 05-06 (Nash) when he averaged 35.4 ppg, but ZERO rings. Did Kobe get worse? No, he became a better player but his teammates changed. Lebron, similarly over his six ringless years has been amazing and arguably the best in the game winning MVP's in 2009 and 2010, but again, no rings. What finally convinced me, however, was a little role-reversal I played with myself in my head. Substitute Zydrunas Ilgauskas for Shaq in 2000, 2001, and 2002 and you can't convince me Kobe isn't ringless through his first 12 seasons. How differently would one's perspective of Kobe's greatness be had he gone his first 12 years without a title?
In all fairness to Kobe, he was no doubt the best player on his team (we can erase Game 7 of this years Finals because Ronald Artest was obviously the greatest player on the floor that game) for the other two championships he's won, but let's play a little role reversal again. Who was Kobe playing with the last two years? Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Adam Morrison and THE ZEN MASTER. Who was Lebron playing with? Mo Williams, Varijao and Mike Brown? Really? Put Lebron on the Lakers with Gasol, Bynum, Odom and Phil Jackson the last two years and can anyone tell me that Lebron and the Lakers don't win both those championships? Put D-Wade or Durant on the Lakers instead of Kobe and I still think the Lakers could arguably win both those championsips but they would not be as good as they are with Kobe. However, put Lebron on the Lakers instead of Kobe and I think they are a better team. If Lebron could lead Cleveland to 66 wins I would imagine the Bulls 72-win season would have been in Jeopardy had Lebron taken his talents to Hollywood and been with the Lakers and Phil Jackson the last two years.
And then there's Kobe with the Cavs. 66 and 61 win seasons like Lebron did? No way. I would imagine Kobe would have averaged 30+ points each year but I would bet on around a 50 win season with Kobe instead of Lebron.
I'm not saying Lebron and the Heat will put the Bulls record in Jeopardy this year as they are going to get the best from their opponents every night and I'm not sure how they will all mesh and most importantly they don't have a big guy, but I will say this: I like the Heat much more with Lebron than I would with Kobe and I feel like I can say that with any other team in the league. If you could add Lebron or Kobe (this includes the Kobe from any year of his career) to any team in the league, that team would be better with Lebron. Kobe has always had a Jordan-like obsession with winning that Lebron has never seemed to have and most likely never will. A refuse to lose eff you attitude, similar to what the 7th ward church ball team has had the last two years, and the "Fear Factor" as CJ calls it, make Kobe one of the greatest of all time. A Karl Malone-like body with the athleticism of the offspring of a demonic cobra and a 6 foot 8 inch jack rabbit put Lebron right up there with him.
Down by one, 10 seconds left, and I can have anyone in history on my team not named Michael Jordan or Jeff Hornacek, I'd take Kobe Bean Bryant.
But tell me I need the best player in the game, give me Bron-Bron.
Darren Hatch
This is the coolest blog I have ever read. Keep up the good work.
ReplyDeleteHopefully the chosen one can lead his team past the Hawks in the Southeast division.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing that I don't think people understand with Championships is that you always need more than one great player to win. (Thank you The Book Of Basketball) Name me a single team the last 20 years that didn't have 2 great, top of their game, NBA all star caliber players who won the championship? You can't. Even Michael Jordan had Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Steve Kerr, BJ Armstrong, Horace Grant and the ZenMaster. So yes, what LeBron has done so far has been amazing with the supporting cast he has had. But here's the thing, you made the point about body types. Lebron is a train going down the floor, and that creates mismatches because of his size. LeBron is skilled, but still doesn't have a dependable post move, outside shot, or free throw shooting. Kobe has all of those now, though admittedly, he has developed the post moves with the help of some hall of famers lately. And Darren, you know based on the BS Report, that the 72 win mark won't be touched simply because there will be those 10+ games a year where the best player on the team has to will his team to victory that they have no reason to win (i.e. back to backs, 3 games in 4 nights, 4 in 5, etc. etc) that Jordan simply willed the team to victory in. And look at the veteran teams wanting to conserve. Could the Lakers have gotten to 66 last year, I believe so, but injuries somewhat played a part and they rested their core guys for the playoffs down the stretch, same with the Celtics. All I'm saying is Kobe is the closest to Jordan, who is undeniably the greatest of all time, because of what he has done with the body he has given, and because of the similarities in will to win. Will LeBron be top 10 greatest of all time, possibly top 5, yes, but he needs to win championships. At least 4-5. This was a quickfire response. With a little more research, my arguments wouldn't be as flawed as I'm sure they are.
ReplyDeleteThe two arguments I see in that post by Anonymous are that #1) Lebron is big and skilled but doesn't have a dependable post move, oustide shot, or FT shooting like Kobe does and #2)Kobe is closest to Jordan because of what he has done with the body he has been given and similarities in will to win. #1-Lebron shot over 50% from the field last year and that was against defenses whose #1 focus was trying to stop him. Kobe's career high was 46.9% and that was against defenses whose #1 focus was trying to stop Shaq. I don't know the exact definition of dependable but I'd say 50% is more dependable than 46.9% no matter how ugly/pretty the fadeaway jumper looks. Kobe is definitely a better free throw shooter than Lebron but before you go on about that you should take a look at their True Shooting Percentages, which takes into account free throw shooting, and I think you'll find that Lebron does pretty well for not having a "dependable move".
ReplyDelete#2 If we're going to base greatness on what one does with the body he was given and their will to win wouldn't you say Larry Bird is by far the greatest player of all time with Jeff Hornacek a distant 2nd and Jordan and Kobe mixed in there somewhere down the line around Detlef Schrempf?
Does Lebron need to win championships to be one of the greatest of all-time? Yes, but I don't think it's fair to say Kobe is better than Lebron because of his 5 championships when he's won them with The Zen Master, Shaq and Gasol.
80's Lakers: Magic, Kareem, James Worthy
ReplyDelete80's Celtics: Bird, Parish, McHale, Walton
90's Pistons: Thomas, Dumars, Rodman
1st 3-peat Bulls: Jordan, Pippen,
Rockets: Olajuwon, Drexler,
2nd 3 peat Bulls: Jordan, Pippen, Rodman
Spurs: Duncan, Robinson, (then Ginobli and Parker) and Big Shot Rob of course
Lakers: Shaq, Kobe,
Pistons: Aberration to all of this
Heat: Shaq and Wade
Lakers: Kobe and Gasol
What does all this have to do about anything? Well, no superstar has ever won without help. You can't hold it against Kobe that he has needed help...They have all needed help.
Shooting percentage: Granted, Kobe's shooting percentage is down, but that is largely because of where the shots are being taken from the floor, i.e. farther away from the basket every year. James=many layups/shots near the basket. James is developing his jumpshot and has a chance to be a great jump shooter, just as Jordan became with time. He may get there, but he isn't there yet. (He's no where near the best shooter on his own team at the moment. ) That needs to be taken into account when making the case of shooting percentages. Kobe takes a lot more jump shots now. His percentage will be lower accordingly.
Body: I believe Jordan is considered the greatest of all time for a number of reasons, but a main one is that he was so dominant as a guard in a league where big men are what every team covets (unless you're the 2010/11 Phoenix Suns, and then you just have a roster of 11 small forwards and Steve Nash). The league has never seen a body type like LeBron's. He is a freak of nature. He is dominant, and his size helps him be that, though he is extremely skilled as well. Kobe is dominant for many reasons, and it has nothing to do with being 6' 9" 260 lbs. All I'm saying is that size is a factor in the discussion.
And just to be frank about things, Jordan never won without the Zen Master either.
I agree with all the points you just made just not your analysis of them. No superstar has ever one without help is my point exactly. People won't put Lebron up with Kobe because he hasn't won any titles. I'm not holding that against Kobe as much as I'm saying you can't hold the no championships against Lebron because he hasn't had the help Kobe has had. And I agree that Kobe is a better jump shooter and he takes a lot more jump shots than Lebron which will lower his percentage accordingly, but the fact that they both put up 30 a night and Lebron doesn't use as many team possessions to get those 30 tells you something doesn't it? Who cares if he's not hitting as many jump shots if it's more effective to use his freak of nature body and get to the hole? I just don't understand how you can fault Lebron for his size and athleticism which are exactly what make him so unbelievable. That's like saying, "Oh, Shaq was pretty good but he couldn't cross you over from the top of the key and hit a running floater like Iverson." And just to be clear, I realize someone like a Robin Lopez shoots a higher percentage than Lebron but that doesn't make him a better player. The difference is a guy like Lopez gets a lot of easy buckets as a result of a teammate (ie Steve Nash) creating, drawing the extra defender, and dumping it off, whereas, Lebron and Kobe both create their own scoring opportunities. I might add here that they both can put up 30 a night but Lebron also adds 9 assists 7 rbds 1 block and almost 2 steals along with that. How can anyone argue with that stat line?
ReplyDeleteAnd again, to reiterate, the fact that Jordan never won without the Zen Master and Kobe never won without him and a Shaq or Gasol is not a knock on Jordan or Kobe. It just further proves my point that Lebron has not had the teammates/coaches around him that Kobe has and are necessary to win titles so you can't hold it against Lebron.